Chen Jieren: I Am Not a Grand Narrative Painter

地点:中央美术学院露天咖啡厅
时间:2011年9月19日下午
被访人:陈界仁(以下简称“陈”)
采访人:段子迎(以下简称“段”)

段:陈界仁老师您好!请简单介绍一下您这次“超有机”展览的参展作品《帝国边界Ⅰ》好吗?
陈:好的。我那时受邀去美国展览,在申办签证时,面试官怀疑我想要偷渡,所以被拒签。美国人可以随时免签证入境台湾,而台湾人前往美国前,除了准备文件和财力证明外,还需要忍受面试官充满歧视的审问。后来,我成立了《我怀疑你是要偷渡》的网络部落格,征求有相似遭遇的民众,写下相似的经验,同时也将这个部落格,作为讨论如何改变这种歧视制度的平台。《帝国边界 I》是从部落格上的留言发展而成的作品。第一个段落是台湾人申办赴美签证时,遭到美国在台协会面试官粗暴的言词对待和莫名理由拒签的八个典型案例;第二个段落是八位嫁给台湾人的大陆配偶入境台湾时,从机场的面谈制度开始,面对台湾移民署各种审查和歧视的经验。

段:我们知道这是您“去帝国意识”运动之一,听说您决定从此不踏入美国?
陈:是的。我的作品在美国有展出,但让我出席的话我都是找人代替。我觉得作品是我的一个“分身”,一个人可以有很多个分身,但是我本人坚持自己那样的决定。

段:您有很多影片都是关注那些被社会忽视的人,例如《帝国边界Ⅰ》、《加工厂》、《路径图》等,您是不是觉得这些人群特别需要艺术或文化领域的关注?
陈:其实我从来没有觉得这些人是弱势者,并不是说她们是弱势而我帮他们代言。例如《加工厂》的女工,她们是很强悍的,她们抗议的原因是老板恶性关场,和中国大陆现在面临的问题也一样。台湾将近30年是世界工厂,加工厂靠密集劳力业,靠低劣的工资获取差价,例如富士康。等到一定时期过后,工厂就会搬走。工厂老板先脱产,然后突然说关厂。劳工的退休金、资遣费等都没有,但又很难去告他,因为工厂已经脱产,无法从他身上再获得什么。《加工厂》的背景是1996年,台湾劳工抗争最高峰的时候,那些女工曾经有很激烈的抗争,甚至把火车拦起来,把高速公路围起来弄得瘫痪。

段:所以说您的作品很多都是以历史事件为基础的?
陈:例如你说的《加工厂》。为什么这件事情会被遗忘,其实这并不是一个历史事件,因为这些女工都还在,很多人都以为我在讨论历史事件,但她们其实都是当代的生命政治啊。就是说,她们是存在的,我们的媒体应该关注并追踪,但因为世界上讯息太多了,这个问题就被遗忘,但这关系到这么多劳工的问题,甚至把它认为是一个过去式,但其实所有的问题没解决。所以我打算把这个问题继续扩张下去。这个影片不是讲单一的一个事件,是讲全球工厂的移动,资本的移动,其实全世界的劳工都是这样。这个事件不只是关于过去,关于“你们”,也关于未来。马克思讲的其实就是今天这个全球化的状况。我们不要把生命和政治切割开来,例如你毕业之后在北京应该买不起房子,这是不合理的。

段:您的影片是否旨在对现实有所改变?例如《帝国边界Ⅰ》。
陈:“改变”这种说法有些危险。我觉得“改变”一定是从很多微小行动里一点点被累积起来的,我当然知道你不可能播一部影片就能让美国这么一个大帝国改变它自己。但是,你可以去改变人们想事情的方法,可能最后只有一个或两个人受到影响,当他面对其他事件的时候,他会学会反思。艺术品可以是人与人相互连结。我们常讲“自我”,好像“自我”就与“他者”无关,但我们从一开始讲话,语言就充满了“他者”。我们对“他者”开放并连结其实是天经地义的事。艺术通过不断循环展示的方式,来让这件事情有所延续。

段:您的影片和纪录片还是有很大区别的。
陈:我觉得或许当代艺术可以提供一种可能性。其实像加工厂这样议题的纪录片很多,例如谈血汗工厂。所以关键不是议题,而是怎样以这个议题切进去,让这个事情变得更立体,让这个事情有更多被传述的空间。纪录片是说明式的,而当代艺术不是。知识分子讲这种道理都很容易,但当世人的身体感受你是感觉不到的。我希望我的影片能让人在遇事后有感触就够了。

段:作为学生,学院体制在一定程度上限制了我们的视野,很多还是走上常规的商业化道路。您对当代学艺术的学生有什么建议吗?
陈:其实我觉得不要急着当艺术家。其实我也是很晚才专注在创作,我觉得所谓的创作不只是那种每天很认真的画画,当然我不是否定绘画,其实每种艺术形式可以的。但不要急着这样走。艺术就在生活中,比如有个“工人艺术剧场”,我觉得那就是前卫艺术中心啊,这不是为他们维权的问题。艺术最简单的问题就是想象力,你如何把问题推延下去。

段:您的某些议题刚好可以拿来讨论“超有机”展览中的“生命政治”的主题。
陈:其实谈“生命政治”是讲我们怎么被生命政治穿透,我们为什么要这么辛苦地生存。大陆现在讲“蚁族”,最基本的生活都得不到保障。刚开始来大陆觉得语境有些不一样,我也不太理解。有很多人说,艺术家不一定要关心现实,我觉得那当然啦,没有说艺术家就是社会运动工作者,况且我也不是。但这就是我们生命中的一部分啊。所以我做的作品就是强调这就是我的生命经验,我的生活经验,从来就不是什么很复杂的问题。我讲这个事也不需要去调度什么复杂的法国哲学啊,朗西埃、齐泽克什么的。我用的是最通俗的方法讲生命政治。当然哲学家有哲学家的工作,这都关于想象力。

段:感觉您在“超有机”展览中有很明显的特征,比如很有国际视野,很有“社会责任心”。
陈:其实我们可以换一下修辞,这个词语有些重。当我们关心别人的时候,也是在关心自己。这又回到“他者”的问题。艺术教育很重要,我觉得作品说明还是最好写一下。我去年在台北市立美术馆展览的时候,导览艺术品的人原本是知识分子的工作,但台湾搞这种所谓新自由主义的政策,请派遣工、临时工之类。我非常反对这种东西,尤其是国家机构,导览员应该是第一线的史学家,解释是很需要想象力的。欧洲在这方面确实有做的好的地方。譬如说,我的影片很慢,很沉闷。在欧洲美术馆放的时候,小学生会看到,老师会引导他们发现问题,比如为什么这么慢,小学生就说因为艺术家希望我们会思考。

段:您现在已经初步参观了美术馆,在这次布展《帝国边界Ⅰ》的过程中,有什么感受吗?
陈:在这次展览中,我觉得投影仪就不要投很大,不像《凌迟考》要给人压迫感。而《帝国边界Ⅰ》讲签证这样发生在每个人身边的问题,我就希望跟人的比例差不多。不要过度夸张,让大家都来看我,作品要考虑与观众之间的关系。艺术很关键不是在于占领那个物质空间,而是要开启相互之间的想象空间与精神空间。所以我来大陆就觉得展览空间都好大,这么大的空间我们有办法消化吗?为什么不静下来讨论、互相了解呢。比如我的艺术品还比较好理解,但像吴山专的作品就不容易讨论了,我们可能更需要有耐心的去做很多密集的交流。很多东西都需要慢慢去改变观念。比如杜尚的小便池那么小,在艺术史中却占重要位置。艺术家需要与艺术史学家、评论家一起探讨、想象,而不是走一个过场而已。

段:在“超有机”展览中,有许多青年艺术家也是做影片,但角度和题材与您不同,相对来说比较个人化、微观。您是怎样看待他们的艺术?
陈:我觉得微观没有不好,而且觉得微小叙事是关键。见微知著,我们可以看年轻人当代生活中的一些问题。但我的也不是宏大叙事,我们的生命经验不同,其实我也是从自我经验出发。记忆不是讲过去式,所有的记忆都生存在当下,而当下又随时变为历史,历史性的时间永远存在于一个当下问题上。就像艺术史帮我们看待、挪移,提出对当代的观点。我们不要陷入一种事态论,没有什么新的问题、老的问题,例如福柯谈论生命政治从古希腊开始,这问题持续很久了。如果没有最开始,也就没法把问题说清楚。谈小的事情没有好不好,关键看够不够极致。而且有的人同样谈大问题,其实只是样子很大、议题很大。20几岁的人谈20几岁的事是很正常的,关键是如何让自己成为一个开放的身体。

段:您当初愿意来参加“超有机”展览有什么想法动机吗?
陈:我当初知道“超有机”也有在谈生命政治之类,就很好奇,想看看大陆是怎么谈的。不过到现在还没有真正布展完,并没有看到全部的作品。

段:谢谢陈老师今天接受我的采访!
陈:不客气!


艺讯网记者:段子迎


陈界仁,1960年生于台湾。现生活、工作在台北。曾举办过 “军法局 — 陈界仁个展”(西班牙,苏菲雅皇后国家美术馆,2008)等个展。作品参加过第48届、51届、53届“威尼斯双年展”(意大利,威尼斯),第24届、29届“圣保罗双年展”(巴西,圣保罗),“利物浦双年展:国际06”(英国,泰特利物浦美术馆,2006)等群展。

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(2) Party B (CAFA Art Museum) is a specialized, international modern art museum. CAFA Art Museum keeps pace with the times, and works to create an open, free, and academic space and atmosphere for positive interaction with groups, corporations, institutions, artists, and visitors. With CAFA’s academic research as a foundation, the museum plans multi-disciplinary exhibitions, conferences, and public education events with participants from around the world, providing a platform for exchange, learning, and exhibition for CAFA’s students and instructors, artists from around the world, and the general public. As a public institution, the primary purposes of CAFA Art Museum’s public education events are academic and beneficial to society.

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(1) Content. The content of images taken by Party B bearing Party A’s likeness include: ① CAFA Art Museum ② CAFA campus ③ All events planned or executed by the CAFAM Public Education Department.

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The applicable geographic scope is global.

The media in which the portraiture may be used encompasses any media that does not infringe upon Party A’s portraiture rights (e.g., magazines and the internet).

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The fees for images bearing Party A’s likeness will be undertaken by Party B.

After completion, Party B does not need to pay any fees to Party A for images bearing Party A’s likeness.

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(1) All matters not discussed in this agreement shall be resolved through friendly negotiation between both parties. Both parties may then sign a supplementary agreement, provided it does not violate any laws or regulations.

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(3) This agreement exists in paper and electronic forms. The paper form is made in duplicate, with Party A and Party B each retaining one copy with the same legal efficacy.

Event participants implicitly accept and undertake all the obligations stated in this agreement. Those who do not consent will be seen as abandoning the right to participate in this event. Before participating in this event, please speak to your family members to obtain their consent and inform them of this disclaimer. After participants sign/check the required box, participants and their families will be seen as having read and agreed to these terms.

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CAFA Art Museum Event Safety Disclaimer

Article I

This event was organized on the principles of fairness, impartiality, and voluntary participation and withdrawal. Participants undertake all risk and liability for themselves. All events have risks, and participants must be aware of the risks related to their chosen event.

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Event participants must abide by the laws and regulations of the People’s Republic of China, as well as moral and ethical norms. All participants must demonstrate good character, respect for others, friendship, and a willingness to help others.

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Event participants should be adults (people 18 years or older with full civil legal capacity). Underage persons must be accompanied by an adult.

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Event participants undertake all liability for their personal safety during the event, and event participants are encouraged to purchase personal safety insurance. Should an accident occur during an event, persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for the accident, but both have the obligation to provide assistance. Event participants should actively organize and implement rescue efforts, but do not undertake any legal or economic liability for the accident itself. The museum does not undertake civil or joint liability for the personal safety of event participants.

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During the event, event participants should respect the order of the museum event and ensure the safety of the museum site, the artworks in displays, exhibitions, and collections, and the derived products. If an event causes any degree of loss or damage to the museum site, space, artworks, or derived products due to an individual, persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for losses. The event participant must negotiate and provide compensation according to the relevant legal statutes and museum rules. The museum may sue for legal and financial liability.

Article VI

Event participants will participate in the event under the guidance of museum staff and event leaders or instructors and must correctly use the painting tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities provided for the event. If a participant causes injury or harm to him/herself or others while using the painting tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities, or causes the damage or destruction of the tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities, the event participant must undertake all related liability and provide compensation for the financial losses. Persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for personal accidents.

CAFA Art Museum Portraiture Rights Licensing Agreement

According to The Advertising Law of the People’s Republic of China, The General Principles of the Civil Law of the People’s Republic of China, and The Provisional Opinions of the Supreme People’s Court on Some Issues Related to the Full Implementation of the General Principles of the Civil Law of the People’s Republic of China, and upon friendly negotiation, Party A and Party B have arrived at the following agreement regarding the use of works bearing Party A’s image in order to clarify the rights and obligations of the portrait licenser (Party A) and the user (Party B):

I. General Provisions

(1) Party A is the portraiture rights holder in this agreement. Party A voluntarily licenses its portraiture rights to Party B for the purposes stipulated in this agreement and permitted by law.

(2) Party B (CAFA Art Museum) is a specialized, international modern art museum. CAFA Art Museum keeps pace with the times, and works to create an open, free, and academic space and atmosphere for positive interaction with groups, corporations, institutions, artists, and visitors. With CAFA’s academic research as a foundation, the museum plans multi-disciplinary exhibitions, conferences, and public education events with participants from around the world, providing a platform for exchange, learning, and exhibition for CAFA’s students and instructors, artists from around the world, and the general public. As a public institution, the primary purposes of CAFA Art Museum’s public education events are academic and beneficial to society.

(3) Party B will photograph all CAFA Public Education Department events for Party A.

II. Content, Forms of Use, and Geographical Scope of Use

(1) Content. The content of images taken by Party B bearing Party A’s likeness include: ① CAFA Art Museum ② CAFA campus ③ All events planned or executed by the CAFAM Public Education Department.

(2) Forms of Use. For use in CAFA’s publications, products with CDs, and promotional materials.

(3) Geographical Scope of Use

The applicable geographic scope is global.

The media in which the portraiture may be used encompasses any media that does not infringe upon Party A’s portraiture rights (e.g., magazines and the internet).

III. Term of Portraiture Rights Use

Use in perpetuity.

IV. Licensing Fees

The fees for images bearing Party A’s likeness will be undertaken by Party B.

After completion, Party B does not need to pay any fees to Party A for images bearing Party A’s likeness.

Additional Terms

(1) All matters not discussed in this agreement shall be resolved through friendly negotiation between both parties. Both parties may then sign a supplementary agreement, provided it does not violate any laws or regulations.

(2) This agreement comes into effect on the date that it is signed (sealed) and the relevant boxes are selected by Party A and Party B.

(3) This agreement exists in paper and electronic forms. The paper form is made in duplicate, with Party A and Party B each retaining one copy with the same legal efficacy.

Event participants implicitly accept and undertake all the obligations stated in this agreement. Those who do not consent will be seen as abandoning the right to participate in this event. Before participating in this event, please speak to your family members to obtain their consent and inform them of this disclaimer. After participants sign/check the required box, participants and their families will be seen as having read and agreed to these terms.

I have carefully read and agree to the above provisions.

Group Visit Agreement
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CAFA Art Museum Publication Authorization Agreement

I fully agree to CAFA Art Museum (CAFAM) submitting to CAFA for publication the images, pictures, texts, writings, and event products (such as works created during participation in workshops) related to me from my participation in public events (including museum member events) organized by the CAFA Art Museum Public Education Department. CAFA can publish these materials by electronic, web, or other digital means, and I hereby agree to be included in the China Knowledge Resource Bank, the CAFA Database, the CAFA Art Museum Database, and related data, documentation, and filing institutions and platforms. Regarding their use in CAFA and dissemination on the internet, I agree to make use of these rights according to the stated Rules.

CAFA Art Museum Event Safety Disclaimer

Article I

This event was organized on the principles of fairness, impartiality, and voluntary participation and withdrawal. Participants undertake all risk and liability for themselves. All events have risks, and participants must be aware of the risks related to their chosen event.

Article II

Event participants must abide by the laws and regulations of the People’s Republic of China, as well as moral and ethical norms. All participants must demonstrate good character, respect for others, friendship, and a willingness to help others.

Article III

Event participants should be adults (people 18 years or older with full civil legal capacity). Underage persons must be accompanied by an adult.

Article IV

Event participants undertake all liability for their personal safety during the event, and event participants are encouraged to purchase personal safety insurance. Should an accident occur during an event, persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for the accident, but both have the obligation to provide assistance. Event participants should actively organize and implement rescue efforts, but do not undertake any legal or economic liability for the accident itself. The museum does not undertake civil or joint liability for the personal safety of event participants.

Article V

During the event, event participants should respect the order of the museum event and ensure the safety of the museum site, the artworks in displays, exhibitions, and collections, and the derived products. If an event causes any degree of loss or damage to the museum site, space, artworks, or derived products due to an individual, persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for losses. The event participant must negotiate and provide compensation according to the relevant legal statutes and museum rules. The museum may sue for legal and financial liability.

Article VI

Event participants will participate in the event under the guidance of museum staff and event leaders or instructors and must correctly use the painting tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities provided for the event. If a participant causes injury or harm to him/herself or others while using the painting tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities, or causes the damage or destruction of the tools, materials, equipment, and/or facilities, the event participant must undertake all related liability and provide compensation for the financial losses. Persons not involved in the accident and the museum do not undertake any liability for personal accidents.

CAFA Art Museum Portraiture Rights Licensing Agreement

According to The Advertising Law of the People’s Republic of China, The General Principles of the Civil Law of the People’s Republic of China, and The Provisional Opinions of the Supreme People’s Court on Some Issues Related to the Full Implementation of the General Principles of the Civil Law of the People’s Republic of China, and upon friendly negotiation, Party A and Party B have arrived at the following agreement regarding the use of works bearing Party A’s image in order to clarify the rights and obligations of the portrait licenser (Party A) and the user (Party B):

I. General Provisions

(1) Party A is the portraiture rights holder in this agreement. Party A voluntarily licenses its portraiture rights to Party B for the purposes stipulated in this agreement and permitted by law.

(2) Party B (CAFA Art Museum) is a specialized, international modern art museum. CAFA Art Museum keeps pace with the times, and works to create an open, free, and academic space and atmosphere for positive interaction with groups, corporations, institutions, artists, and visitors. With CAFA’s academic research as a foundation, the museum plans multi-disciplinary exhibitions, conferences, and public education events with participants from around the world, providing a platform for exchange, learning, and exhibition for CAFA’s students and instructors, artists from around the world, and the general public. As a public institution, the primary purposes of CAFA Art Museum’s public education events are academic and beneficial to society.

(3) Party B will photograph all CAFA Public Education Department events for Party A.

II. Content, Forms of Use, and Geographical Scope of Use

(1) Content. The content of images taken by Party B bearing Party A’s likeness include: ① CAFA Art Museum ② CAFA campus ③ All events planned or executed by the CAFAM Public Education Department.

(2) Forms of Use. For use in CAFA’s publications, products with CDs, and promotional materials.

(3) Geographical Scope of Use

The applicable geographic scope is global.

The media in which the portraiture may be used encompasses any media that does not infringe upon Party A’s portraiture rights (e.g., magazines and the internet).

III. Term of Portraiture Rights Use

Use in perpetuity.

IV. Licensing Fees

The fees for images bearing Party A’s likeness will be undertaken by Party B.

After completion, Party B does not need to pay any fees to Party A for images bearing Party A’s likeness.

Additional Terms

(1) All matters not discussed in this agreement shall be resolved through friendly negotiation between both parties. Both parties may then sign a supplementary agreement, provided it does not violate any laws or regulations.

(2) This agreement comes into effect on the date that it is signed (sealed) and the relevant boxes are selected by Party A and Party B.

(3) This agreement exists in paper and electronic forms. The paper form is made in duplicate, with Party A and Party B each retaining one copy with the same legal efficacy.

Event participants implicitly accept and undertake all the obligations stated in this agreement. Those who do not consent will be seen as abandoning the right to participate in this event. Before participating in this event, please speak to your family members to obtain their consent and inform them of this disclaimer. After participants sign/check the required box, participants and their families will be seen as having read and agreed to these terms.

I have carefully read and agree to the above provisions.

Event Booking Form

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Reminder:

Hello! Thank you for participating in our public education event and we are looking forward to seeing you! If you cannot attend the event on time, please send a text message to 13261936837 (Liang) to cancel the booking. Please be aware that your eligibility for using the quick booking may be affected If you cancel the booking more than three times. Thank you for your understanding!
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